SST Shots vs "Pretty Pictures" - SaltwaterCentral.Com

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Capt_Dave
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Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:19 pm
There is a TON OF BULLSHIT in the SST world....

In the last couple of days I have seen some things that made me cringe....so I thought I would take a moment to set a few things straight....and explain the difference between "Pretty Pictures" and a true SST shot.



The data coming from the BEST Satellite shots is .7 nm per pixel. It does not get any better than that.....the data is what it is.



What other places are doing is called "Smoothing". I can not "Smooth" mine....because mine is NOT a picture.....it is colorized data. I equate smoothing to the "Fish Icon" on you color scope....BS! Give me a real data any day of the week.

I saw another place talking about how they HAND ADJUST their shots to match whatever.....and if it is an automated process you can not get the accuracy bla bla bla....

We do not ever have to adjust anything....The software behind Bluewater Supermap was built under contract from NASA to display Satellite data. It is already geography accurate because at its core it runs on files that say lat-lon-value . If the water temp is this value at this lat-lon....what is there to adjust? We are not taking a picture of an SST shot and Stretching it or skewing it or making it "Pretty"....we simply display....LAT-LON-Value.

If you stand on the beach and look out at the ocean how far can you see? 10 miles or so? Why?> Because the earth is round.

That is what is called "Induced Error" in the SST biz. That is what they are having to "Hand Adjust". You can not take a flat image (Call it a sheet of paper) and have it accurately represent a round earth (Call that a basketball)

Try the sheet of paper over a basketball....the paper wrinkles. Those wrinkles are what is known as "Induced Error" and Induced error makes them Geographically inaccurate. Bluewater Supermap does not have this issue.

I got one more...and I will get off my soapbox. I saw where someone was displaying Sub-Surface Temps and calling it Mixed Layer Depth...LOL! Nice outriggers on your pickup truck there friend...LOL!

Look....Use what ever system you like. I give away more than a lot of them charge you for but just know what you are looking at.

At the end of the day the difference between what I do and what everyone else does is I am a fisherman that happens to be a computer geek not a computer geek that happens to fish....

Captain Dave Tilley
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Last edited by Capt_Dave on Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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werewolf0711
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Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:59 pm
I was wondering where the soap box came from. Now I know!
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redfishNC
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Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:37 pm
Love it! Supermap is head and shoulders above the other services.  
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Bilzo
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Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:50 pm
Dave - I get what you're saying, but how much of a difference does it really make when you're using the data to fish.

"Pretty pictures" are marketing if nothing else, giving users and idea of where to go and find "the break". Odds are, by the time you get out there, it'll have changed anyway, so how much of a big deal is it if they're data is smoothed a bit?
  
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Capt_Dave
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Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:05 pm
It can be MILES. Think about this....1nm on the ocean from a single point is really 2 nm across. IF I move....or make you think that "break" is .5 miles from where it is really showing it is really inducing an extra 1 mile of total error. (We are talking about smoothing here)

Now in the "Image" part of it....it is even more.

Top left corner and bottom right corner of the image are fairly close to accurate. In the center of the image.... lets say we are looking at a shot showing cape fear and the same ol....It can be off as much as 4 miles from a single point. Induced error is no joke.

Back when I launched Supermap...Amanda (Blueeyezocean) posted about it on a site in Fla sword fish something....I don't remember now....But this guy came on behind her and called it all snake oil BS. The whole industry. So she called me in and I engaged the guy and it turns out he was one of the principles involved with MODIS from NASA. I allowed him in the backend of what we were doing and how we were doing it and by the end of the thread he came back on the site and said he was glad to see someone finally get it right. Like I said....Induced error is no joke when hunting fish offshore. On a map of a lake ....no big deal...in the Open Ocean. Very Big Deal.

Dave
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stackchaser
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Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:27 pm
Dave,

I get what Bilzo is saying. If the shot is at 4am and we leave at 5am and have 2hrs to the fishing grounds, we are behind the 8 ball already as we the last shot we are using is not current. The break isn't typically going to be where it was on the shot when we get out there. I always thought it would be great if someone took the average water speed and forecast the break in hour, 2hr, 4hr...whatever increments on the best guess where the defined temperature break would be. Know that takes some computer software and some guess work, but its better than what the average fisherman is doing when he has to work with data that is 4, 6, 8hrs old, or if its been cloudy, 24hrs old.
Right now, if I see a good temp break at the stream and its 8hrs old when I get to the fishing grounds, I am heading a bit north of the shot, and then looking for the temp break. If the stream is ripping it might be gone or 20 miles north of me. I have no idea, but modeling it might be something that is a game changer. Or a bunch of pissed off fisherman if the temp break goes mixed.

Just some food for thought and probably impossible to do.
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werewolf0711
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Wed Mar 02, 2016 2:15 am
I can tell you Dave knows his stuff. For those looking at the same maps I know Dave can point out things many can't. He generates a map the night before a trip for many folks here and I can tell you without a doubt what he labels will be where he says maybe just slightly different based on that margin of error. All Dave is trying to point out here is that he provides the most detail specific map you can get. I have long wondered why his maps where pixelated like they were but never asked. Now I know.
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chumbucket
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Wed Mar 02, 2016 2:25 am
Interesting. I've been falling for the 'pretty shots'. Thought they were more accurate than the pixelated ones. Other way around. Thanks for educating me Dave.
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Bilzo
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Wed Mar 02, 2016 3:19 am
Please don't misinterpret my earlier comment to mean I didn't think Dave knows his stuff. Not my intent at all. The purpose of my comment was to state that while his approach may garner better precision than others, in practicality, it may not be significantly more useful owing to the way it has to be used.

The data is used to indicate where to head, but then you have to use your own instruments to fine tune where you're gonna stop. That's all. I'm not trying to debase his work. Just get a better handle on why it's really that much better.

4 Miles error is a pretty big deal. But from the time we get the shot to the time we get to the break....not unreasonable to think it'd move 4 miles anyway.
  
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Capt_Dave
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Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:46 am
Bilzo,

So 4 miles + 4 miles is 8 miles of possible error.

You are correct in that it moves. In the seminars we do we talk all about this...but my point is that want the MOST accurate data you can get. IF day before yesterdays shot was X miles off....and today's is x miles off...do you not think that can cause you to expect to be X miles off on your prediction of where it will be tomorrow? and that is my point. Not trying to be mean or anything....but just like in anything else....Put s*&t in-> Get s*&t out. I want to start with the best I can get.

Dave
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Capt_Dave
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Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:54 am
chumbucket wrote:
Interesting. I've been falling for the 'pretty shots'. Thought they were more accurate than the pixelated ones. Other way around. Thanks for educating me Dave.


That was part of why I made this post. People that know....Know.

One way to always tell is if the values change when you roll the mouse....value changes = BS.

I know of at least one that goes halfway....He gives you pretty pictures and then pulls the values from the database. (You have to stop the mouse to get the value) but what you are looking at is still just a pretty picture.

Why do they do this...Money. It is dirt easy and dirt cheap to geo reference an image. Hell GPSU that I use all the time for waypoint manangment can do it. A GIS system is STUPID expensive but it is the way to go if accurate is what you want.

Dave
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Angelescrest
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Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:47 pm
Dave, does the 1 hr class you teach at the saltwater fishing schools go over anything that's not in the videos you have uploaded on this site?  
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aftergolf
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Wed Mar 02, 2016 1:24 pm
The way I have always used Supermap was a combination of different pages, one is mixed layer depth and the other is the currents.
If you look at the relative speed of the water, in 12 hours that water may have moved a long ways if the current is ripping in a full moon situation. If you are watching an eddy, could be 30 NM or more further up the beach.
That is why if you can look at multiple days and get coordinates to map the leading edge you can approximate where that break may be. At least that is how I try to figure out where to start.
Hope that helps a little.
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Bilzo
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Wed Mar 02, 2016 3:44 pm
Quote:
Not trying to be mean or anything....


No worries. I don't think you're being mean at all. I totally get the gist of what you're presenting.
  
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rdnkvet
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Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:58 pm
Capt_Dave wrote:

One way to always tell is if the values change when you roll the mouse....value changes =BS


Which value changes are you referring too. Just interested so I know what to look for.
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Capt_Dave
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Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:45 pm
rdnkvet wrote:
Capt_Dave wrote:

One way to always tell is if the values change when you roll the mouse....value changes =BS


Which value changes are you referring too. Just interested so I know what to look for.


If you are looking at an SST shot....then it would be the Temp.

Not the Lat/Lon....

Dave
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Capt_Dave
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Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:37 pm
aftergolf wrote:
The way I have always used Supermap was a combination of different pages, one is mixed layer depth and the other is the currents.
If you look at the relative speed of the water, in 12 hours that water may have moved a long ways if the current is ripping in a full moon situation. If you are watching an eddy, could be 30 NM or more further up the beach.
That is why if you can look at multiple days and get coordinates to map the leading edge you can approximate where that break may be. At least that is how I try to figure out where to start.
Hope that helps a little.


I like to use the drawing tools at the top of the screen to draw the outline of a feature 3 days ago....2 days ago....1 day ago...and today and then based on what you see....Where will it be tomorrow?

Dave
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Capt_Dave
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Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:38 pm
Angelescrest wrote:
Dave, does the 1 hr class you teach at the saltwater fishing schools go over anything that's not in the videos you have uploaded on this site?


Yes. In the videos it is hard to "Pull it all together" like I do .....LIVE.

Dave
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rdnkvet
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Wed Mar 02, 2016 8:36 pm
Capt_Dave wrote:
Angelescrest wrote:
Dave, does the 1 hr class you teach at the saltwater fishing schools go over anything that's not in the videos you have uploaded on this site?


Yes. In the videos it is hard to "Pull it all together" like I do .....LIVE.

Dave


Any chance of private tutoring?
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Capt_Dave
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Wed Mar 02, 2016 8:42 pm
It is hard to justify doing 1 at a time.

Maybe we will get a local class going. What inlet do you run out of?

Dave
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ta
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Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:04 pm
I'm not good with computers I very seldom say anything. Dave has always put me on fish.he has my support and l know from using him for years if he says fish here and l doing I miss out.thanks Dave  
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rdnkvet
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Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:19 pm
Capt_Dave wrote:
It is hard to justify doing 1 at a time.

Maybe we will get a local class going. What inlet do you run out of?

Dave


Masonboro
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harding153
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Wed Mar 02, 2016 11:43 pm
Capt_Dave wrote:
It is hard to justify doing 1 at a time.

Maybe we will get a local class going. What inlet do you run out of?

Dave


I'm interested in this......We run out of Southport most of the time and Beaufort once in a blue moon.

Would be willing to travel just about anywhere though because all this is confusing me! lol
  
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Spacesaver
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Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:05 am
I'm in let me know when, where, and how much.  
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Capt_Dave
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Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:15 am
I will be at the Greenville Fishermans Post School on March 12th and at the Traid Fishing Club School in Clemmons NC March 19th.

I would be willing to do one here locally if someone has a little space we could use.

Dave
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Capt_Dave
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Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:21 am
Well that did not take long....LOL!

Wes Barbour from Island Tackle just called and said he would be happy to host us.

Lets look at March 25-26-27....Fri,Sat or Sun evening.

I put up a poll and whatever one gets the most votes is the day we will do it.

http://saltwatercentral.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=339109#339109

I know Chasing Tails was along trying to get me to do one in the Morehead Area. Maybe we can do both the same weekend.

Dave
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Capt_Dave
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Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:42 pm
I was talking about this with a friend of mine yesterday and this came to mind....


Dave
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Matador
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Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:20 pm
Hey Dave, since you mentioned accuracy and precision, how is MLD deriving it's data. Is it running an algorithm derived off of SST subsets plus a couple other variables or what? The reason I ask is because I have found MLD to be very reliable and accurate so if MLD is utilizing SST subsets plus a couple other variables then this proves your claim of your SST accuracy and precision being better compared to other SST models. Basically, if your SST sucks then MLD would suck (which is doesn't)?
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Capt_Dave
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Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:42 pm
MLD is a model and to be honest I do not know how they create it. I know how to use them to kill fish...we come back to the Fisherman that happens to be a computer geek vs a computer geek that happens to fish...

LOL!

I like MLD as well. It is one of my favs.

Dave
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Capt_Rich
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Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:52 pm
For those that are looking at sst and chasing it due to current. Here's a tip look for a piece of structure or a jog in the bottom contor that will cause the current to eddy back in a counterclockwise direction. This is where the fish will stall and feed when you have a big current moving the break fast. The CCW direction will cause the water to upwell locally and be a productive area whenever you have that type of water conditions  
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SST Shots vs "Pretty Pictures" - SaltwaterCentral.Com

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